Uncommon Sense -Part 1: Care

Hi and Welcome to uncommon sense from the sociological review where we seize the taken for granted and see it afresh through a sociological lens i’m rosie hancock in sydney australia and i’m alexis utrong in ottawa canada recording here as the sun comes up just as it goes down where you are rosie yeah i guess you would have just gotten out of bed and i’m pretty much ready to get into bed so now i usually work on religion and activism and alexis here looks at young people and mental health right alexis yeah so although those two things are pretty different and although alexis and i are in different sides of the world we along with the team at the sociological review believe sociology is for everyone it shouldn’t be hidden in dusty libraries or buried in dense journal articles behind paywalls so uncommon sense steps away from the university and looks at stuff that affects us all yeah and crucially you don’t have to be a sociologist to think like one so wherever you are whoever you are this podcast is for you [Music] today we’re talking about care it’s a word that’s become especially powerful or you could say a little bit hollow in the past couple of years in the context of covert 19. it’s also something we might be quick to associate with i don’t know latex gloves care homes and also problematically women right alexis if i said care to you what comes to mind becoming an adult actually so i have a small son and when i think of care i think of taking care of him when he was born and since then also i think about the uncertainties around taking care of my parents as they get older yeah me too actually well today we’re talking to someone whose work really busts the idea of care right open tying it to big themes like inequality and gender and that’s been the case for years whether in her landmark 97 study of working class young women in the north of england which is called formations of class and gender or in her more recent work on solidarity care and yep covert 19. she’s the feminist sociologist professor bev skeggs hi bev welcome hi so great to have you on here thank you for inviting me hi bev so we’ve shared an office before but when you started out you did research on working class women in northeast england touching on questions of care tell us a bit about that well interestingly it didn’t begin to be about care it was about why do working-class women get working-class jobs which was kind of in parallel to paul willis’s study of why did working-class boys get working-class jobs and so his was very much a study of masculinity and i wanted to see how it all played out in terms of class and gender and so i started studying with and researching with a group of women who were doing care and health courses in a further education college and i realized how significant care was as a form of value to them is something that actually really mattered both morally and also kind of economically it was where they would get jobs because they often didn’t have qualifications and it was one of the things they did that actually made them feel good about themselves good about other people and it was one of the things they could do very very well because it’s actually quite rare to find a working-class woman who hasn’t been educated to care for others or their families and relatives and whatever else so it was really about class to begin with and then it turned into care because i realized how significant it was and so it became a study of gendered subjectivity as in how do people become particular people over a period of time so it was ethnographic it was a long study and it studied how they they came into formation as people and people who were subject to quite a lot of daily denigration you know they were being put down regularly by different authorities by education systems and so it was about how they became subjects of value of that study came out in 97 but you’ve continued to care about care so in 2017 you wrote a really moving piece about the lack of care that your parents experienced in later life that piece is called a crisis in humanity what everyone with parents is likely to face in the future and you can find it on the sociological review website uh as someone with fast aging parents for me it’s a reminder that care affects us all throughout all life stages so there are times when we might be the carer there are other times in our life when we will be cared for and how complacent we are about how care functions in society probably depends on where we see ourselves when we think about the word care that’s such an important point rosemary because i think one thing that never stops astonishing me is how our society rewards the most careless those who can and do care less about other people so i think that that piece in the sociological review really wrote me because i had been relatively complacent about the amount of care that had been put into me i just took it for granted by my parents over the years and i think we do take our parents for granted but i also think we take everybody who puts care into us for granted all of our friends if you if you just think about how many people have invested in you through their caring um just really nice things like alexis one sorting out all the heating system for the whole of the sociology department at goldsmiths we’re freezing that sort of act of kindness we take for granted often and that those things are really really important so the piece for the sociological review was because i was confronted by the complete lack of care that was available for both my parents the first example was my father who was subject to the privatization of the nhs and was left to die in agony because privatized ambulances privatized services shortage of nurses shortage of beds privatization of beds even and for me as a sociologist it was just shocking i think until we come to face it we don’t actually know in the uk how much has been privatized for instance there’s seven areas in the uk that have absolutely no social care support for the elderly um you can’t get provision you can’t it’s not there so for my mother she was disabled she was blind 90 blind she couldn’t get any support and she’d go into hospital and they’d try and throw her out because their performance measures were based upon um stopping people doing what they call bed blocking but if you’re blind and you can’t get the care you need you fall over a lot you break a lot of things you’re in hospital constantly and so for me it became really really sociological as well as totally and absolutely heartbreaking i had to find services now i’m a researcher i i will spend a lot of time working out who to speak to how to speak to them where provision is what to do what the structures are and i just found this devastation of social care in a way i could not believe so i was both trying to deal with looking after my mum with the help of i had to find private caring agencies and that was horrific because the way they treat their carers is extraordinary the surveillance they’re subject to the the lack of zero contracts and things oh just unbelievable i mean it’s a whole story of gig employment when people talk about gig employment they usually talk about deliveroo but actually for me care is one of the most uh horrific forms of employment mainly for women but also for for migrant workers for men as well so i was in this dilemma of trying to find help for my mom impossible to get i couldn’t get any overnight and you can’t leave somebody who can’t feed themselves can’t walk properly can’t see you have to look after them so i was kind of confronted by that but that very personal confrontation was also sociological confrontation with where are the services what’s happened to them what’s happened to unemployment why why has the care home being completely financialized by a private equity hedge fund you know what is going on so in the midst of trying to keep my mom alive which was it became impossible i not only kind of found this whole new area of destruction i’d say destruction of of people’s lives the workers lives the carers lives the elderly people who weren’t getting care at that point it was estimated there was 40 000 people dying annually from lack of care it was just terrific so starting to look at karen understand care really opened up the window on on how it was sometimes taken from granted all of the care that we’ve received but also how deeply sociological those questions were as a society how we take care of each other and how we’re also dependent on each other and some really broader questions around institutions financial questions and so forth and and you mentioned like your parents friends and so on the another fascinating thing about care is that it automatically makes us think about relationships about the connections between us uh in in that way it’s pretty ripe uh territory for sociology which automatically acknowledges society acknowledges that we’re all dependent on one another absolutely and the care manifesto that’s just been published by the care collective is so good on this um it is about the politics of interdependence you know we cannot live without other people we need other people all the time we are social beings you know look at the effect uh lockdowns had on people uh devastating mental health impacts we need other people and we also want to care for other people so not obviously in circumstances that are really dramatic and horrific but we most of the time we are actually caring for our friends the people around us for our students we do a huge amount of care that is completely and totally unrecognized and it is about all relationships are social it’s practically impossible to be anti-social it’s very very difficult so so far we’ve been speaking about care and this idea that cares implicitly about relationships in what sounds like quite an in a way an individual sense right so the way that we might care for our parents or we care for children or we care for each other but we could also think about care at a more systemic level so is paying our taxes care or is reducing carbon emissions care for future generations can care about policy and climate change and foreign aid budgets yup care is about it it is i would argue very very strongly it’s kind of the infrastructure for everything you couldn’t have capitalism without care because who is replenishing the worker who is reproducing the labor so you can’t have our basic economic structure without the infrastructure of all the care what we call social reproduction uh all the work that goes into enabling the whole motor of society to operate if we don’t understand its fundamental relationship i think we’re lost which is why kind of policies on alternative economics or uh just just make no sense if you don’t include care and what’s really important rosemary that you point to is that care isn’t just an industry a finance a form of relationship it’s also about a disposition towards others it’s about how we treat other people and other things so how do we treat the planet you know how do we just you know let the planet burn and let people die as a result or do we actually try and nurture it do we treat people as if they just are a labor to be extracted or do we enable them to flourish you know that is a way we operate in the world and i think it’s really important that we think about it structurally institutionally and as a personal disposition please define personal disposition uh attitude towards others so it comes from a sociologist probably pierre borgio who argues that we embody very different attitudes towards different things through our socialization and socialization is a form of care so it’s about how we relate to other people but how we embody that relationship so some people are really really kind alexis you’re a very kind person you will always help people you’ll always support people and you’ll always do it in a very selfless way that’s very different to people who are completely selfish don’t care irresponsible next expect other people to do all their work for them so we’ve been talking about care as a notion that’s been a little bit sidelined especially given how massive a concept it really seems to be but let’s move on now to talk about something that’s really brought care into the spotlight which is covered 19. no doubt a lot of people are tired of talking about the pandemic but i think we can find a new way of doing so a way to say something different via this notion of care bev what has the pandemic taught us about care so far again i think one of the key things is about the sheer irresponsibility of people who have power they have attempted to transfer in the uk responsibility to the individual whilst taking very very little governmental responsibility for the pandemic i think it’s been shocking i’m i i’ve been shocked i wrote a paper on it i was so shocked now what i also think it’s taught us is the kind of return to i would say three really significant legacies historical legacies that shape the approach to covid that we now see in england and i’m saying england very specifically so if we go right back to history and if we look at very very forms of early necro speculation making money from death basically we see how that was a form that was practiced throughout slavery how it had to be controlled by governments but what we see through this pandemic is how the english government has actually made a huge amount of money from covid uh it’s obviously using tax payers money to fund lots of things but all those ppe contracts have been given out to tory funders the levels of corruption the way they’ve lined their own pockets has been astonishing that is the legacy of necro speculation the other one is the legacy of thanatocracy which is about the use of labor without any protections the idea that anybody can be used and abused to do things so putting people back to work in very unsafe conditions is a form of thanatocracy i mean we’re going to experience that very dangerous conditions for lecturers entering a lecture theater of with 500 people uh are nowhere so a variant factory effectively so no protection for labor has become really really significant look at the bus workers look at the people who’ve died nhs staff care workers the protections weren’t in place for them at the beginning of the pandemic and then the third legacy that i think is really important is social reproductions the care itself who’s had to do all the work of care when the government has literally passed over the responsibility well the women’s budget group is brilliant on documenting who’s doing most of the work of care so they’ve been you know women have been educating at home whilst doing all the domestic work as well now that’s obviously race and class cut through all this uh and we see how kind of a lot of the work of care was done by a whole what sarah faris called migrant army of of laborers but what’s significant i think that we can see through covet is how those very very old historical legacies shape the present and all the restraints on on government on protection and for me it’s become a battle between protecting people and using and extracting value from people so i think that’s what i’ve learned from covett bev can i just quickly ask who the women’s budget group are ah they’re a fantastic group in the uk who are made up of lots of feminist economists who regularly write reports check the website on the conditions um of women uh not always just women but of of different forms of gender work oh they sound they sound very cool they’re absolutely wonderful an incredibly important source of information bev you’ve been involved in something called the solidarity and care platform at the sociological review which you can find if you head to our episode notes tell us briefly what that’s about and also why sociology should even care about covid should we shouldn’t we get those questions to medical doctors uh proper scientists or even bankers maybe that’s a really interesting part because i started i was in a conference on care recently and somebody said why are we now or relying on medical journals instead of lots of other journals so we now all read the bmj which is really hard uh british medical journal and the lancer and nature so we are we are looking at lots of scientific reports i think if we don’t understand the social relationships that underpin the major crisis in the world we won’t understand anything and i set up that site and erica lagelis has been uh the editor of it she’s done a fantastic job i set it up because i thought we need to have an archive of what happens during this pandemic now sociology has been quite sidelined in a lot of obviously a lot of government term work we’ve got quotes saying how much boris johnson dislikes sociologists great but what we have with that is an archive of people who are doing the work of social reproduction who are caring and what was absolutely fantastic is that it’s very global we extended into we’ve got lots of reports from india from latin america and what you see and it’s it’s really kind of heartwarming because what you actually seen i don’t want to romanticize this because this is about transferring labor and exploiting people and extracting from them and giving them the really hard work to do when the government should be doing it but what we’re seeing is that you know people will support each other huge numbers of kind of mutual aid across the world lots of support sex workers in india have been exemplary in protecting each other and so we come back to the word protection again and i at the beginning i use solidarity because i thought that’s the nice kind of more political way of seeing things but i’m now i’m now returning to the word protection because i think with something like a pandemic protecting labour protecting life protecting vulnerable people the elderly have just been you know laid to waste really in the pandemic protecting them has become really important so it solidarity protection and care it should be but it’s just been a really good example of what people can do do do and of the politics of interdependence i think it’s it’s so interesting because in australia i feel like we’ve seen two sides to the coin of this idea of solidarity in relation to covert at the beginning yeah in 2020 of the pandemic all of these mutual aid groups you mentioned them i know that so they are in the uk they definitely sprung up in australia as well and it was this amazing sense that people were caring for other people in their communities that they didn’t really know and were able to meet with people so i was doing some research with an organization and you know they were connecting people in different suburbs across sydney um who didn’t have the opportunity to meet before the pandemic and we were all stuck at home but somehow we were more connected and caring more for people in our local communities than we had been previously that doesn’t really seem to have continued into 2021 which i think is really interesting and actually i feel like there’s almost a failure of solidarity that’s coming up that’s starting to come up with extended lockdowns um or new or new lockdowns in australia where people aren’t willing to make sacrifices for other people anymore it seems i think it’s going to be a watch this space i really do because i think at different moments people can give and want to give and want to help and want to support and food banks have been really important things like the campaigns for feeding children organized by footballers in britain marcus rashford what a hero he should be the prime minister and so what we see is different moments i think of people coming together and coming together around different issues as well and that that might not sustain and i don’t think we should believe that they will sustain because people get exhausted people get absolutely you know used up by doing all these things i mean if you look at the massive increase in food banks in britain it’s totally astonishing so lots of people are giving money to food banks but not doing the work there but they’ve expanded they’ve become really significant now again this takes us back historically because it was charities that actually stop people dying often horrific charities but sometimes really really good ones so again it’s about the protection of life when it’s needed and i’m not sure all those mutual aid groups are needed all the time but it’s good to see people recognizing their interdependence i think and then where do we go with that i think once people have recognized it that’s a really important move but i’m not sure where we take it after that and i don’t want to romanticize you know the idea of the community because i’m not sure it works like that i feel like we’ve kind of hinted at this throughout the conversation but covert seems to remind us of the fallacy that we can ever really be islands separate from each other and whether that’s at the individual level because even when we’re self-isolating in our homes we still need other people including the key workers or people doing our deliveries or at the level of the state as well and i reflect on this coming based in australia where we’ve had this fortress mentality which has been successful in what some respects but it’s just not sustainable absolutely i mean there was a question about why should we expect the state to look after us well i think we should that is its role there is a social contract um and so it should afford some level of protection but as you say rosemary what’s key is we’ve seen how global this is there’s no point in vaccinating their rich northern nations when the rest of the world is actually dying exactly and the pandemic moves around the world it’s like it’s it’s a bit like climate change you know short term one policy thinking is not going to get anybody anywhere uh you know we really need to think globally and if we look at things like the care industry it’s global care workers they’re global uh the pandemic it’s global and we really really need to see we can see how things contextualize but they are really global so we’ve just talked about some quite difficult stuff but the solidarity and care pages on the sociological review site do also offer hope as it says there covert has shown us that a future centred on collective care is possible it also says that cruelty greed and exploitation got us into this but that it will be care that gets us out that’s a nice idea to hold on to i think you just have to keep hoping you’ve got to believe that the world can be a better place you’ve got to believe that it can be a place where people can flourish not be used abused spat out and blamed for their own problems so i think it’s important that we hang on to the idea and i think you have to have hope uh to believe that we can have a better world and to have a better world we actually need to care for other people in a moment we’ll be talking about a buzzword that’s become especially popular in recent year self-care but first a word from our producer alice hi there you’re listening to uncommon sense from the sociological review where we take a sideways look at the ideas that shape our world and we do it by grabbing concepts that we think we know things like home or care and shaking and stretching them a bit with guests who cast them in a whole new light we’re about challenging everyday assumptions about how we live and intervening in the crises that shape all of our lives today and if you like what you’re hearing please do hit pause in whatever app you’re using and tap subscribe it takes just a couple of seconds and it really helps us to bring this podcast to you and why not share this episode with the questioning critic in your life remember you don’t have to be a sociologist to think like one you will find recommended reading and much more besides at the sociologicalreview.org thanks for listening okay so when we set out to make uncommon sense one of the things we wanted to do was get our teeth into language to consider the words and ideas that have become so commonplace that we don’t really stop to think about them and today we want to ask you bev about a buzzword that’s kind of stuck self-care ah yeah right i think like when i think about self-care it makes me think of this night in the previous in a previous lockdown in 2020 when my partner and i bought face masks and i drank some wine and we sat on the couch and it was this kind of idea of taking time out for ourselves and really cocooning ourselves and retreating you know and when i did this search online self-care seemed to lead us to self-care journals and spa treatments and really strange diets and there’s this whole industry which is apparently worth around 450 billion us dollars and according to stylist magazine there are more than 50 million instagram posts out there tagged with self-care but bev what does the word mean to you and is the word itself actually that new or are we just talking about something old in a different guys we’re talking about something old that’s been really really commoditized and absolutely as you say become a huge industry and has also by becoming so commodified has eclipsed all sorts of different forms of care it’s almost as if it’s eclipsed the interdependence of care that every form of care really relies on so it’s impossible just to be self-caring but yes the the the size of the industry should alert us to the fact that this is one great big con but there is a sociological history to this and probably the most like the source of the word itself would be michel foucault a french philosopher who talks about how power and control is not just directed through repressive forms of the state but become transferred to the individual and we are expected to produce ourselves men through self-mastery and women through self-care uh that’s that’s actually making this argument very vulgar but it kind of works in terms of the industry itself um and how that becomes self-care often becomes the responsibility of women so there’s a fantastic article by eva eluz one of my favorite sociologists who looks at how self-care becomes a way of understanding the individual as completely and totally atomized as subject to what’s called individualization so all the different policies that say you are an individual you are not social um which is ridiculous because you can’t just be an individual but if you think about yourself as an individual you become far less political you become far less connected and you think about yourself not other people why has self-care become so prominent i think what we see over the last 30 years is many different governments the interests of capital the media all focusing on not thinking socially you know margaret thatcher’s no such thing as social class tony blair using all sorts of euphemisms for the word social class so it’s kind of a movement away to stop people thinking about the structures they inhabit the inequality they inhabit the exploitation they’re exposed to but everything becomes about the tiny individualized atom so everything that happens to people is meant to be their responsibility it is a transfer of responsibility for the social to the individual again great um a psychologist valerie walker dean has written about how we used to speak in the grammar of social structure we would talk about economies we talk about how institutions work and now we talk our predominant language is the language of psychology so we’ve had this move from how we actually understand the world that’s great for politicians that’s great for people with power because it means they don’t have to take responsibility we saw this playing out during the pandemic where responsibility is given to people it is your responsibility to stop this global pandemic really how do you do that so we see that transfer all the time and we see it in language and people talk about themselves as if they are atomized individuals with a unique social makeup where in fact so much pattern so much repetition so many social structures are are part of that and you use the word earlier alexis socialization our whole process of education is about becoming socialized to fit into a society not to be an atomized individual so all these things are working together and self-care is a phenomenal form of profit as you say rosemary you know massive billions of pounds globally is made from people trying to find out why they’ve got so many problems when in fact if they read a sociological textbook it’ll probably explain it but there is there is there is some great feminist work on marriage guidance that’s a really interesting one how instead of thinking about you know what are the social conditions that people exist in why do we have so much domestic violence and femicide why why are we looking at this is a psychological problem you know it’s a problem of gender structure power and responsibility so i think it’s in the interests of power to make us think of ourselves as completely atomized and it stops us connecting to people and we spend all our money you know uh trying to please ourselves instead of thinking about other people so i think it’s really problematic but audrey lorde audrey lord argues we can have radical self-care and that’s when you’ve been doing lots of political organizing against horrific structural forms like institutional racism that you need to look after yourself it sounds like heaps of the really mainstream self-care stuff is very i think you use the word commoditized bev so this idea that something you can buy something you can consume right so popular magazines like psychologies uh there are heaps of mindfulness apps out there that you can sign up to i know i’ve got one on my iphone festivals dedicated to well-being adult coloring books uh there’s just there’s so much and it all seems very harmless i guess when we talk about it but it’s important to ask what it’s replacing and i think that’s what you’re getting at right like the gap that this is filling yeah because of course we all have problems you know we all do suffer we all struggle uh we all have issues but we always turn you know instead of turning to our friends we turn to a book that tells us that we’re just not behaving correctly and we do that for everything we do that for our relationships we do it for our families we do it for our work and you know the advice industry is extraordinary and some of it’s really uh horrific because what it does is say that a lot of the work that needs doing the labor of self-care is actually allocated to women particularly so they’ve got to become kind of nice and passive in order that they can have a partner you know so so the gendering and again lisa blackman looks at this how the media discourse that gender self-care is really really key but what it avoids is the power relationships that make us feel so horrific in the first place you know we’ve got to think why do we feel so bad it’s not us it’s the conditions we live in we need a sociological explanation going back to the question of of like mental health i guess here too when young adults for example are experiencing mental health related issues there’s a lot of discourse around like you have to take care of yourself kind of isolate and like do things on your own the responsibility is on you to control kind of how you go about your your daily life and doesn’t really pan out into more uh state-driven strategies for social insertion and it ties up to other important themes or concepts in sociology like that of shame stigmatization it seems that today we’re expected to demonstrate this self-care that it makes us respectable i guess that’s a notion you explored in some of your early work i believe yeah and i i mean it’s again you have to perform your self-care i think we’ve moved into an era where performing yourself as a responsible individual has become so much more significant we saw that through the research we did on reality tv you know the people were punished for not performing their self-care but they have to perform their moral value across every domain so things like respectability becomes really significant but mental health kind of throws a spanner into this because it’s so difficult if you’re a young person at the moment in lockdown it’s just really really difficult you know how do you connect to other people you’re at that moment in your life where you really need to connect and you are being forcibly contained so it’s not surprising that things are uh you know producing really difficult mental health problems also things like you everybody’s very anxious so all these things should not surprise us that people are feeling remarkably anxious in very insecure conditions but our own individual psychology is not going to explain all of that we need a much bigger picture thanks for that bev i should just quickly say that we’re recording this in mid 2021 and who knows where we’re going to be by the time this goes to air we’re really hoping that it’s not going to be still more lockdowns but it’s hard to say so it’s almost time for us to go we’ve talked today about care as this huge concept that is so much more than just the domestic realm or the care home or the hospital and bev we wondered what you would point us to in terms of films or music art literature something something kind of a cultural thing that says something important about care well i i was reminded of my phd student diane railton who did this fantastic phd on how young women listen to music that treats them with respect loves them and cares for them so one of the examples of the period is take that you know i want you back for good all this kind of stuff and it really kind of loves the women so it’s very heterosexual obviously and she looked at how in order to become a mature modern woman so not to be thought of as a child or adolescent anymore you had to learn music that treated women really badly so oasis yeah really really horrible music that treated women as objects and for me it was one of the most stunning phds because you think yep we all have to learn that we’re not adored loved and honored and treated with respect we have to learn that we’re just objects so for me that was a key sociological understanding but in terms of comfort again it’s an old reference i remember when i first watched the tv series tales of the city armistead morban about queer communities in san francisco i just wanted to be in that hilariously fun interesting challenging community and it was another way of living and i think that’s really important we need to think about other ways of doing care that aren’t restricted to our traditional forms so i could think of high art but i think i’ll go with those too yeah i mean you bev were just at the beginning they’re talking about how songs shape our idea of what it means to be a woman and i want to point to adrian rich’s work on motherhood as both experience and institution although i have to say i read these essays of hers just before i became a mother for the first time myself which was only a couple of months ago so i’m actually gonna have to stop there because i’m struggling to remember what was with the essays there’s been too many sleeping that’s great actually that’s great what about you alexis so initially this is going to sound very corny but hear me out so my suggestion would be robin williams what dreams may come which is a story of a man who dies and goes to heaven but his partner is in hell because she took her own life so he goes back to try and find her and actually i have a brother that passed away when i was 18. in similar conditions and that movie really captured all of the challenging emotional work around care i’d say so the some of the beautiful moments but definitely also that the turmoil and the hardships that’s associated with that but yes i i definitely suggest that yeah i think alexis what you bring up here is so great because we can talk really abstractly about care but actually it’s something that touches each of us in very deeply personal ways well that’s it from us for today and bev thank you so much for your time and coming on the show uh we’ll say goodbye to you here thank you for all your labour care and attention [Music] if you want to see what everyone here at the sociological review has recommended on care alongside pieces on everything from love to medicine to addiction and recovery you’ll find it all in our show notes and over at thesociologicalreview.org alexis what would you take away from today i know that for me i’m going to be thinking about the fact that care isn’t just about small things that we do for an individual like making my partner a cup of tea but it’s paying my taxes or it’s taking climate action to care for future generations yeah definitely some of the points that bev talked about how we focus on the individual but it’s really about the social like that’s what’s most important power money like these these these things that we wouldn’t really think are connected with care another thing would be what she points out like the hope right you always have to have hope yeah there’s so much more that we could talk about and if you’ve enjoyed listening do subscribe and give us a review in whatever app you’re using it takes a few seconds but it helps us make more episodes for you we’ll be back soon with more uncommon sense our producer was alice block thanks for listening or should i say take care of yourself bye .





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